Ath.You shall hear without any fruitless loss of time.That which has law and order in a state is the cause of every good,but that which is disordered or ill-ordered is often the ruin of that which is well-ordered;and at this point the argument is now waiting.For with you,Cleinias and Megillus,the common tables of men are,as Isaid,a heaven-born and admirable institution,but you are mistaken in leaving the women unregulated by law.They have no similar institution of public tables in the light of day,and just that part of the human race which is by nature prone to secrecy and stealth on account of their weakness-I mean the female ***-has been left without regulation by the legislator,which is a great mistake.And,in consequence of this neglect,many things have grown lax among you,which might have been far better,if they had been only regulated by law;for the neglect of regulations about women may not only be regarded as a neglect of half the entire matter,but in proportion as woman's nature is inferior to that of men in capacity for virtue,in that degree the consequence of such neglect is more than twice as important.The careful consideration of this matter,and the arranging and ordering on a common principle of all our institutions relating both to men and women,greatly conduces to the happiness of the state.
But at present,such is the unfortunate condition of mankind,that no man of sense will even venture to speak of common tables in places and cities in which they have never been established at all;and how can any one avoid being utterly ridiculous,who attempts to compel women to show in public how much they eat and drink?There is nothing at which the *** is more likely to take offence.For women are accustomed to creep into dark places,and when dragged out into the light they will exert their utmost powers of resistance,and be far too much for the legislator.And therefore,as I said before,in most places they will not endure to have the truth spoken without raising a tremendous outcry,but in this state perhaps they may.And if we may assume that our whole discussion about the state has not been mere idle talk,I should like to prove to you,if you will consent to listen,that this institution is good and proper;but if you had rather not,I will refrain.
Cle.There is nothing which we should both of us like better,Stranger,than to hear what you have to say.
Ath.Very good;and you must not be surprised if I go back a little,for we have plenty of leisure,and there is nothing to prevent us from considering in every point of view the subject of law.
Cle.True.
Ath.Then let us return once more to what we were saying at first.
Every man should understand that the human race either had no beginning at all,and will never have an end,but always will be and has been;or that it began an immense while ago.
Cle.Certainly.
Ath.Well,and have there not been constitutions and destructions of states,and all sorts of pursuits both orderly and disorderly,and diverse desires of meats and drinks always,and in all the world,and all sorts of changes of the seasons in which animals may be expected to have undergone innumerable transformations of themselves?
Cle.No doubt.
Ath.And may we not suppose that vines appeared,which had previously no existence,and also olives,and the gifts of Demeter and her daughter,of which one Triptolemus was the minister,and that,before these existed,animals took to devouring each other as they do still?
Cle.True.
Ath.Again,the practice of men sacrificing one another still exists among many nations;while,on the other hand,we hear of other human beings who did not even venture to taste the flesh of a cow and had no animal sacrifices,but only cakes and fruits dipped in honey,and similar pure offerings,but no flesh of animals;from these they abstained under the idea that they ought not to eat them,and might not stain the altars of the Gods with blood.For in those days men are said to have lived a sort of Orphic life,having the use of all lifeless things,but abstaining from all living things.
Cle.Such has been the constant tradition,and is very likely true.
Ath.Some one might say to us,What is the drift of all this?
Cle.A very pertinent question,Stranger.
Ath.And therefore I will endeavour,Cleinias,if I can,to draw the natural inference.
Cle.Proceed.
Ath.I see that among men all things depend upon three wants and desires,of which the end is virtue,if they are rightly led by them,or the opposite if wrongly.Now these are eating and drinking,which begin at birth-every animal has a natural desire for them,and is violently excited,and rebels against him who says that he must not satisfy all his pleasures and appetites,and get rid of all the corresponding pains-and the third and greatest and sharpest want and desire breaks out last,and is the fire of sexual lust,which kindles in men every species of wantonness and madness.And these three disorders we must endeavour to master by the three great principles of fear and law and right reason;turning them away from that which is called pleasantest to the best,using the Muses and the Gods who preside over contests to extinguish their increase and influx.