Cle. To be sure; no men more so.
Ath. And we ought, if possible, to provide them with a quiet ruler?
Cle. Of course.
Ath. And he should be a man who understands society; for his duty isto preserve the friendly feelings which exist among the company at thetime, and to increase them for the future by his use of the occasion.
Cle. Very true.
Ath. Must we not appoint a sober man and a wise to be our masterof the revels? For if the ruler of drinkers be himself young anddrunken, and not over-wise, only by some special good fortune willhe be saved from doing some great evil.
Cle. It will be by a singular good fortune that he is saved.
Ath. Now suppose such associations to be framed in the best waypossible in states, and that some one blames the very fact of theirexistence-he may very likely be right. But if he blames a practicewhich he only sees very much mismanaged, he shows in the first placethat he is not aware of the mismanagement, and also not aware thateverything done in this way will turn out to be wrong, because donewithout the superintendence of a sober ruler. Do you not see that adrunken pilot or a drunken ruler of any sort will ruin ship,chariot, army-anything, in short, of which he has the direction?
Cle. The last remark is very true, Stranger; and I see quite clearlythe advantage of an army having a good leader-he will give victoryin war to his followers, which is a very great advantage; and so ofother things. But I do not see any similar advantage which eitherindividuals or states gain from the good management of a feast; andI want you to tell me what great good will be effected, supposing thatthis drinking ordinance is duly established.
Ath. If you mean to ask what great good accrues to the state fromthe right training of a single youth, or of a single chorus-when thequestion is put in that form, we cannot deny that the good is not verygreat in any particular instance. But if you ask what is the good ofeducation in general, the answer is easy-that education makes goodmen, and that good men act nobly, and conquer their enemies in battle,because they are good. Education certainly gives victory, althoughvictory sometimes produces forgetfulness of education; for many havegrown insolent from victory in war, and this insolence hasengendered in them innumerable evils; and many a victory has beenand will be suicidal to the victors; but education is never suicidal.
Cle. You seem to imply, my friend, that convivial meetings, whenrightly ordered, are an important element of education.
Ath. Certainly I do.
Cle. And can you show that what you have been saying is true?
Ath. To be absolutely sure of the truth of matters concerningwhich there are many opinions, is an attribute of the Gods not givento man, Stranger; but I shall be very happy to tell you what Ithink, especially as we are now proposing to enter on a discussionconcerning laws and constitutions.
Cle. Your opinion, Stranger, about the questions which are now beingraised, is precisely what we want to hear.
Ath. Very good; I will try to find a way of explaining my meaning,and you shall try to have the gift of understanding me. But firstlet me make an apology. The Athenian citizen is reputed among allthe Hellenes to be a great talker, whereas Sparta is renowned forbrevity, and the Cretans have more wit than words. Now I am afraidof appearing to elicit a very long discourse out of very smallmaterials. For drinking indeed may appear to be a slight matter, andyet is one which cannot be rightly ordered according to nature,without correct principles of music; these are necessary to anyclear or satisfactory treatment of the subject, and music again runsup into education generally, and there is much to be said about allthis. What would you say then to leaving these matters for thepresent, and passing on to some other question of law?
Meg. O Athenian Stranger, let me tell you what perhaps you do notknow, that our family is the proxenus of your state. I imagine thatfrom their earliest youth all boys, when they are told that they arethe proxeni of a particular state, feel kindly towards their secondand this has certainly been my own feeling. I can well remember fromthe days of my boyhood, how, when any Lacedaemonians praised or blamedthe Athenians, they used to say to me-"See, Megillus, how ill or howwell," as the case might be, "has your state treated us"; and havingalways had to fight your battles against detractors when I heard youassailed, I became warmly attached to you. And I always like to hearthe Athenian tongue spoken; the common saying is quite true, that agood Athenian is more than ordinarily good, for he is the only man whois freely and genuinely good by the divine inspiration of his ownnature, and is not manufactured. Therefore be assured that I shalllike to hear you say whatever you have to say.
Cle. Yes, Stranger; and when you have heard me speak, say boldlywhat is in your thoughts. Let me remind you of a tie which unitesyou to Crete. You must have heard here the story of the prophetEpimenides, who was of my family, and came to Athens ten yearsbefore the Persian war, in accordance with the response of the Oracle,and offered certain sacrifices which the God commanded. TheAthenians were at that time in dread of the Persian invasion; and hesaid that for ten years they would not come, and that when theycame, they would go away again without accomplishing any of theirobjects, and would suffer more evil than they inflicted. At thattime my forefathers formed ties of hospitality with you; thusancient is the friendship which I and my parents have had for you.
Ath. You seem to be quite ready to listen; and I am also ready toperform as much as I can of an almost impossible task, which I willnevertheless attempt. At the outset of the discussion, let me definethe nature and power of education; for this is the way by which ourargument must travel onwards to the God Dionysus.
Cle. Let us proceed, if you please.
Ath. Well, then, if I tell you what are my notions of education,will you consider whether they satisfy you?
Cle. Let us hear.