Ath. Very good; however, I am not going to say anything against yourlaws until to the best of my ability I have examined them, but I amgoing to raise doubts about them. For you are the only people known tous, whether Greek or barbarian, whom the legislator commanded toeschew all great pleasures and amusements and never to touch them;whereas in the matter of pains or fears which we have just beendiscussing, he thought that they who from infancy had always avoidedpains and fears and sorrows, when they were compelled to face themwould run away from those who were hardened in them, and wouldbecome their subjects. Now the legislator ought to have consideredthat this was equally true of pleasure; he should have said tohimself, that if our citizens are from their youth upward unacquaintedwith the greatest pleasures, and unused to endure amid the temptationsof pleasure, and are not disciplined to refrain from all thingsevil, the sweet feeling of pleasure will overcome them just as fearwould overcome the former class; and in another, and even a worsemanner, they will be the slaves of those who are able to endure amidpleasures, and have had the opportunity of enjoying them, they beingoften the worst of mankind. One half of their souls will be a slave,the other half free; and they will not be worthy to be called in thetrue sense men and freemen. Tell me whether you assent to my words?
Cle. On first hearing, what you say appears to be the truth; butto be hasty in coming to a conclusion about such important matterswould be very childish and simple.
Ath. Suppose, Cleinias and Megillus, that we consider the virtuewhich follows next of those which we intended to discuss (for aftercourage comes temperance), what institutions shall we find relating totemperance, either in Crete or Lacedaemon, which, like your militaryinstitutions, differ from those of any ordinary state.
Meg. That is not an easy question to answer; still I should say thatthe common meals and gymnastic exercises have been excellently devisedfor the promotion both of temperance and courage.
Ath. There seems to be a difficulty, Stranger, with regard tostates, in making words and facts coincide so that there can be nodispute about them. As in the human body, the regimen which doesgood in one way does harm in another; and we can hardly say that anyone course of treatment is adapted to a particular constitution. Nowthe gymnasia and common meals do a great deal of good, and yet theyare a source of evil in civil troubles; as is shown in the case of theMilesian, and Boeotian, and Thurian youth, among whom theseinstitutions seem always to have had a tendency to degrade the ancientand natural custom of love below the level, not only of man, but ofthe beasts. The charge may be fairly brought against your cities aboveall others, and is true also of most other states which especiallycultivate gymnastics. Whether such matters are to be regardedjestingly or seriously, I think that the pleasure is to be deemednatural which arises out of the intercourse between men and women; butthat the intercourse of men with men, or of women with women, iscontrary to nature, and that the bold attempt was originally due tounbridled lust. The Cretans are always accused of having inventedthe story of Ganymede and Zeus because they wanted to justifythemselves in the enjoyment of unnatural pleasures by the practiceof the god whom they believe to have been their lawgiver. Leavingthe story, we may observe that any speculation about laws turns almostentirely on pleasure and pain, both in states and in individuals:
these are two fountains which nature lets flow, and he who drawsfrom them where and when, and as much as he ought, is happy; andthis holds of men and animals-of individuals as well as states; and hewho indulges in them ignorantly and at the wrong time, is thereverse of happy.
Meg. I admit, Stranger, that your words are well spoken, and Ihardly know what to say in answer to you; but still I think that theSpartan lawgiver was quite right in forbidding pleasure. Of the Cretanlaws, I shall leave the defence to my Cnosian friend. But the lawsof Sparta, in as far as they relate to pleasure, appear to me to bethe best in the world; for that which leads mankind in general intothe wildest pleasure and licence, and every other folly, the law hasclean driven out; and neither in the country nor in towns which areunder the control of Sparta, will you find revelries and the manyincitements of every kind of pleasure which accompany them; and anyone who meets a drunken and disorderly person, will immediately havehim most severely punished, and will not let him off on anypretence, not even at the time of a Dionysiac festival; although Ihave remarked that this may happen at your performances "on the cart,"as they are called; and among our Tarentine colonists I have seenthe whole city drunk at a Dionysiac festival; but nothing of thesort happens among us.
Ath. O Lacedaemonian Stranger, these festivities are praiseworthywhere there is a spirit of endurance, but are very senseless when theyare under no regulations. In order to retaliate, an Athenian hasonly to point out the licence which exists among your women. To allsuch accusations, whether they are brought against the Tarentines,or us, or you, there is one answer which exonerates the practice inquestion from impropriety. When a stranger expresses wonder at thesingularity of what he sees, any inhabitant will naturally answerhim:-Wonder not, O stranger; this is our custom, and you may verylikely have some other custom about the same things. Now we arespeaking, my friends, not about men in general, but about the meritsand defects of the lawgivers themselves. Let us then discourse alittle more at length about intoxication, which is a very importantsubject, and will seriously task the discrimination of the legislator.